Curse

gremlin · Sep 09, 2010, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Since I am always arguing that primary class should always be far better than secondary they could make changes in that area.
Drop the spirits damage duration health etc and then link it to the Ritualists primary track.

That could dramatically reduce the number of spirit spam builds out there to Ritualist primaries.
All the Necro Mesmer Ele Monk etc spirit spam builds would still operate but at a much reduced effect.

If a real nerf was to be done just put all the really good spirits on the Rit primary skill track.
Would certainly mess me up as I often run the build on all my caster types usually to easily solo an area.

Not advocating this, I am happy as is but if they did nerf the spirit spam I would prefer them to do it in this way.

Voodoo Rage · Sep 09, 2010, 04:45 PM // 16:45

I do think that true balance is more or less impossible for all situations. Clearly some professions are going to be better suited at some tasks than others (like solo farming Nick items). The beauty of this game is that you CAN play lots of different professions. Unfortunately with title grinding, a lot of people just lock onto one characters and never really explore the experience of playing all the professions.

That being said it does bother me that ALL the professions can roll out a wall of spirits and be effective in PvE. This is a flaw IMO. It's true, you do see warriors and dervishes arguing in PuG's about who gets to be the SoS. That's just wrong.

Just off the top of my head, a couple nerfs that seem reasonable:

- Remove the spawning health bonus for spirits. Spirits should not act as tanks. They should be fragile and their placement out of battle should be a key tactic to playing a ritualist.

- Link spawning to either the damage of the spirits or the number of spirits that you can place at a time.

- Nerf Siphon Spirit to a point where it is not acting as an infinite energy source.

Ka Tet · Sep 09, 2010, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Spirit siphon provides a net gain of 5e on the first use. Assuming that you are spamming it for 'infinite energy', there's a decent chance that same spirit is closest to you the second time you use it, which will cause a net loss in energy.
I'm not really sure why spirit siphon entered the discussion at all, b/c unless they're spamming splinter weapon, a spirit spammer doesn't really need any e-management.

Lanier · Sep 09, 2010, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I disagree that all the playstyle were relatively equal in terms of power. In the absence of SoS and spirit buffs, an AP bar probably makes the most sense for dps. Also not all classes were balanced back then either. The mere fact that some classes were obviously more popular than others shows the inbalance between the classes.

Personally I have been playing my rit ever since Factions started and I have 2 mesmers that were made back in 2005 and they have all completed all the campaigns long before the rit or mesmer buffs. Even though I don't need the buffs, I could still tell that my mesmers and rit were weaker than my necro in terms of killing power, before their respective buffs.

The advantage I have of playing through all classes through all campaigns for many years, is that I can tell which classes are more OP than others. One thing is for sure, they were definitely not better balanced back then.

My bad, we were using different definitions of balance. That must be where the confusion came from. When I said balance, I meant the rit skills were well balanced with other rit skills. Rits had a larger variety of viable builds open to them since several of their skills were closer to having the same "power" than they do now. I didn't mean to say that rits were balanced as a profession overall. In fact, when comparing rits to other professions, I would say the rit profession is more balanced now than it was back then. Back then, the rit profession in general may have been underpowered but several of there skills were equally underpowered thus creating balance between several of the rit's skills and builds.

Also, if I remember right, this was before AP caught on as a really popular skill among casters.

Quote:

i have something for you, some important info:

everytime they nerf and make a build less useful, people come up with another build
which could make it worse, if its not spirits, it may be something better which 3 people can use, because it wont have limits like 1 spirit at a time

and imagine something as good as 3 spirit spammers without spirit limit, but then its no spirits, just a build which is as good

that'll be overpowered thx to the nerfs to spirit spam

many people got sick of the huge amount of nerfs we had some time ago
will they let people leave the game again, or will they let people enjoy the game this time?

in other words: will they nerf rit, or not?

i hope you get my point

Sorry man... but, uh, I dont...

I mean I understand that new builds will always become "meta" after current builds are nerfed... but thats kind of beside the point. Besides, even if anet took into consideration my suggestions, SoS spirit spam would still be one of or probably the most powerful build available to rits. I guess it shows how OP a build is when you suggest nerfs to it, and even with those nerfs, the build is still the "best" option available to a profession.

Quote:

Spirit siphon provides a net gain of 5e on the first use. Assuming that you are spamming it for 'infinite energy', there's a decent chance that same spirit is closest to you the second time you use it, which will cause a net loss in energy.
I'm not really sure why spirit siphon entered the discussion at all, b/c unless they're spamming splinter weapon, a spirit spammer doesn't really need any e-management.

Really? In my experience spirit siphon typically gives a return of ~7-8 energy per use. Since it can be used every three seconds, and since a spirit regains all his energy after roughly 13-15 seconds, having five spirits in a build (which is standard for spirit spam builds that I have seen) means ~7-8 energy every three seconds or so. I think that's about as close as you are going to come to having unlimited energy in this game. While it is true that a pure spirit spammer doesn't need the e-management (which is a problem in itself - it shouldnt be so easy to manage energy that you don't need active energy management skills), a spirit spammer with 3-5 spirits could easily have enough energy to fuel an expensive support skill. Iv used it with prot spirit before, and cycling spirit siphons between my 4 spirits at the time made it very easy to spam the support enchantment often.

EDIT: I don't know where you got 5 energy return from... I just now went to the isle of the nameless to test spirit siphon and I was getting a net return of 11 energy (it gave me back 16 total) at 16 channeling. I would imagine therefore that it would give 8-9 energy return at the least at 13-14 channeling.

Daesu · Sep 09, 2010, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

My bad, we were using different definitions of balance. That must be where the confusion came from. When I said balance, I meant the rit skills were well balanced with other rit skills. Rits had a larger variety of viable builds open to them since several of their skills were closer to having the same "power" than they do now. I didn't mean to say that rits were balanced as a profession overall. In fact, when comparing rits to other professions, I would say the rit profession is more balanced now than it was back then. Back then, the rit profession in general may have been underpowered but several of there skills were equally underpowered thus creating balance between several of the rit's skills and builds.

And therefore nerfing spirit spamming without buffing the other rit skills would make rits overly weak again, compared to the other classes.

Quote:

Really? In my experience spirit siphon typically gives a return of ~7-8 energy per use. Since it can be used every three seconds, and since a spirit regains all his energy after roughly 13-15 seconds, having five spirits in a build (which is standard for spirit spam builds that I have seen) means ~7-8 energy every three seconds or so. I think that's about as close as you are going to come to having unlimited energy in this game. While it is true that a pure spirit spammer doesn't need the e-management (which is a problem in itself - it shouldnt be so easy to manage energy that you don't need active energy management skills), a spirit spammer with 3-5 spirits could easily have enough energy to fuel an expensive support skill. Iv used it with prot spirit before, and cycling spirit siphons between my 4 spirits at the time made it very easy to spam the support enchantment often.

EDIT: I don't know where you got 5 energy return from... I just now went to the isle of the nameless to test spirit siphon and I was getting a net return of 11 energy (it gave me back 16 total) at 16 channeling. I would imagine therefore that it would give 8-9 energy return at the least at 13-14 channeling.

Seriously, if you are targeting each and everyone of your spirits, making sure to siphon enough energy then there is something wrong with your build.

First of all like many have already said, you dont need much energy to play a spirit spammer because spirits do last awhile and even if they don't, their long recharge would. Second, it is a big hassle to pin point the correct spirit to spihon off during combat because you have better things to worry about. The 3 spirits from SoS tend to be close enough together to make this a hassle. Third, you tend to move your spirits from AoE through summon spirits which makes it even harder to pin point individual spirits and remember which spirit you should siphon off next. Furthermore, heroes suck at using spirit siphon, since they tend to siphon off the same spirit repeatedly.

Some spirit spamming bars dont even have spirit siphon on them, so I dont see how all this attention at spirit siphon is even worth it.

Ka Tet · Sep 09, 2010, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Really? In my experience spirit siphon typically gives a return of ~7-8 energy per use. Since it can be used every three seconds, and since a spirit regains all his energy after roughly 13-15 seconds, having five spirits in a build (which is standard for spirit spam bui energy in this game. While it is true that a pure spirit spammer doesn't need the e-management (which is a problem in itself - it shouldnt be so easy to manage energy that you don't need active energy management skills), a spirit spammer with 3-5 spirits could easily have enough energy to fuel an expensive support skill. Iv used it with prot spirit before, and cycling spirit siphons between my 4 spirits at the time made it very easy to spam the support enchantment often.

You are correct, I did mess up on the net energy return.
Beyond that, we've been talking about the standard spirit spammer all along. Your use of spirits to fuel prot spirit is a good idea, but it's not exactly standard, which is what has been at issue. The verbal gymnastics are getting a bit tired at this point. Do you truly believe that SoS is so overpowered and game-breaking that it needs to be nerfed?

Essence Snow · Sep 09, 2010, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Might I add the same question about spirit siphon to the above.

Gill Halendt · Sep 09, 2010, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

And therefore nerfing spirit spamming without buffing the other rit skills would make rits overly weak again, compared to the other classes.

Toning Spirit Spamming down - by reducing DPS and overall abusability of certain skills - would balance it, instead of making Ritualists either overpowered or too weak as the wind changes.

Lanier never suggested a radical nerf. His suggestions would not kill Spirit Spamming, they'd just make it less ridicolously overpowered.

Lanier · Sep 09, 2010, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

And therefore nerfing spirit spamming without buffing the other rit skills would make rits overly weak again, compared to the other classes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

1. Reduce the number of spirits summoned with SoS to 2. Raise the stats of those spirits to their pre-SoS nerf level. (in other words, SoS would allow you to raise two spirits identical to pain spirits for free)

The Dps of SoS would remain relatively unchanged (it would be a little lower but just barely...) but there would only be two spirits which means one less body and one less target for spirit siphon or boon of creation.

2. Raise spirit siphon's recharge to 8.

Although it would still be a very powerful e-management spell in spirit spam builds, this would prevent the rit from having unlimited energy.

Sorry, but I fail to see how my suggestions would make rits overly weak again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Seriously, if you are targeting each and everyone of your spirits, making sure to siphon enough energy then there is something wrong with your build.

First of all like many have already said, you dont need much energy to play a spirit spammer because spirits do last awhile and even if they don't, their long recharge would. Second, it is a big hassle to pin point the correct spirit to spihon off during combat because you have better things to worry about. The 3 spirits from SoS tend to be close enough together to make this a hassle. Third, you tend to move your spirits from AoE through summon spirits which makes it even harder to pin point individual spirits and remember which spirit you should siphon off next. Furthermore, heroes suck at using spirit siphon, since they tend to siphon off the same spirit repeatedly.

Some spirit spamming bars dont even have spirit siphon on them, so I dont see how all this attention at spirit siphon is even worth it.

The point about heroes is kind of irrelevant since that is not what is being discussed. It is common knowledge that heroes can't use Spirit Siphon well.

The fact that spirits in general are not energy intensive still doesn't change the fact that spirit siphon can give the user godly amounts of energy when used in a build with 3-5 spirits. OoS, what used to be a staple in many rit's bars, is now completely inferior to Spirit Siphon when SoS is in the build. Since SoS gives an insane amount of dps and is used in pretty much every offensive rit build nowadays... I mean it just doesn't make since to me at all. I guess now we can clearly see the results of powercreep when, in most situations, it is more effective from a purely energy management standpoint to run a non-elite skill than it is to run an elite energy mangament skill on an offensive rit.

Besides, if you look at my suggestion, spirit siphon would still be able to give back copius returns of energy. With just two spirits in a build, you could still get 8-10 free energy every 8 seconds with the typical channeling spec. For a skill that has such an easy condition to meet, I almost think that even that is too much (its better than power drain IF power drain is used on recharge... which it can't be due to its condition), but im not going to push nerfing it any further...

Quote:

PvE is a damage-fest and in that other options already surpass it.

Which means that the question that needs to be asked here really is, how powerful should a build, that requires as little skill as spirits do, be?
Given the power and ease of play of alternatives, I do not see the need for a nerf. The options that outclass it are, pretty much, also as brainless to play.

While agree with parts of this, there really are very few options that have the damage output of a spirit spammer. I guess you could say discord does in mass, but then again, I would think that if you replaced one discord user in a group with a spirit spammer, the overall dps of your team would increase. I am curious what the rest of you think does more damage on a single person than a spirit spammer.

Voodoo Rage · Sep 09, 2010, 09:14 PM // 21:14

BTW, from wiki:

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit_Siphon

At 16 Channeling, each cast nets 11 energy. This skill has a 1/4 second cast time (negligible) and a 3 second recharge. Spirits regenerate their lost energy every 23 seconds or obviously if you recast them. Really, this more or less exceeds soul reaping if you are good with not re-siphoning the same spirits prematurely.

Essence Snow · Sep 09, 2010, 09:49 PM // 21:49

I think you need to clarify whether you mean Spirit Spamming in general or just SoS. This thread gives nice insight into DPS of the SoS and SoGM builds.

I hate to repeat myself about the "issue" of spirit siphon.....but ya'll keep pounding away that it is ungodly energy. This isn't really an issue as doesn't mesh with any high cost skills. Yes there are high cost rit spirits like shelter, dissonance, and recuperation but they are not spammable w/o ST, RE or Rit Lord ad they do not mesh with a SoS build. Meaning there is no need for this ungodly energy that spirit siphon allows, making it a non issue.

Ka Tet · Sep 09, 2010, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Just to make sure. So, we're at the point where we don't know what about the rit is game-breaking, but we're pretty sure it involves some sort of spirit, and [snickers] spirit siphon?

Lanier · Sep 09, 2010, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

I think you need to clarify whether you mean Spirit Spamming in general or just SoS. This thread gives nice insight into DPS of the SoS and SoGM builds.

Im referring to SoS and, to a lesser extent, spirit siphon. I think I have made it clear that, although I think SoS is a very powerful dps option for rits, the changes that I would like are not ones that would effect the dps of a spirit spam build directly. What I don't like about SoS is that it can both pump out a ton of damage AND create three bodies (pretty resilient ones with investment in Spawning) AND provide unlimited energy with spirit siphon. While I would be fine with an elite being able to do one of these or all of them to a lesser extent, I don't think any skill should be so powerful as to be able to accomplish all of these to the level that SoS can. That is why my suggested change to SoS, while keeping the direct dps of the skill relatively intact (maybe a little bit lower dps but not much), would remove one of the bodies and one of the spirit siphon/boon of creation sources.

That is why I don't have a problem with SoGM. While I acknowledge (and I wish most the the community would acknowledge this as well) that SoGM is just as powerful as SoS, SoGM doesn't have the extra utility that I mentioned above.

Of course in a perfect world, the other offensive spirit spamming elites (wanderlust and ritlord) would need to be on the level of SoGM and SoS as well but I guess thats another topic for another thread. Right now, I just want the overall power of SoS to equal that of SoGM.

EDIT:

Quote:

Just to make sure. So, we're at the point where we don't know what about the rit is game-breaking, but we're pretty sure it involves some sort of spirit, and [snickers] spirit siphon?

Who said anything about SoS spirit spam builds being game breaking?

Essence Snow · Sep 09, 2010, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Right now, I just want the overall power of SoS to equal that of SoGM.

You didn't take a look at that thread did you?

Ka Tet · Sep 09, 2010, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

You didn't take a look at that thread did you?

^^That and don't forget that in addition to providing spirit walls SoGM also provides anti-melee (blind), passive enchant removal and possibly interrupts if you use dissonance.

afya · Sep 09, 2010, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Yes, SoS is OP
Yes, many ppl run SoS
but more ppl running SF
SoS doesn't break econ(one in party, slow solo farm, etc)
SF does
rather than messing with such minor thing, nerf SF first
or wait till theres a SOSway.

Daesu · Sep 10, 2010, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

The fact that spirits in general are not energy intensive still doesn't change the fact that spirit siphon can give the user godly amounts of energy when used in a build with 3-5 spirits. OoS, what used to be a staple in many rit's bars, is now completely inferior to Spirit Siphon when SoS is in the build. Since SoS gives an insane amount of dps and is used in pretty much every offensive rit build nowadays... I mean it just doesn't make since to me at all. I guess now we can clearly see the results of powercreep when, in most situations, it is more effective from a purely energy management standpoint to run a non-elite skill than it is to run an elite energy mangament skill on an offensive rit.

I dont know why you are so hung up on energy, but since you have chosen to be regardless of what we said then sure, we can argue whether rits have the most OP energy gain of all classes or not.

Compare spirit siphon with a necro's soul reaping on a Ether Renewal Ele then.

1. Soul Reaping does not need a skill slot while spirit siphon does
2. Soul Reaping energy gain is automatic, you dont need to target a suitable spirit and cast a spell on it.
3. Soul Reaping needs something to die, I'll give you that. But things die fast enough in PvE for soul reaping to be more OP than spirit siphon.

Ether Renewal is even more OP in terms of energy gain since you gain net energy and hp as you use your spells.

saume · Sep 10, 2010, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zebideedee

I'm afraid thats just how this game seems to play out, SoS got a lil nerf a while back. If Rit's got a major nerf people would come up with a new replacement anyway eg. Ursan -> Perma -> SoS It'll go on and on.

It is a little offputting though, even in the zmiss areas, the vast majority wanting SoS or Monks, I think what they are doing with GW2 is going to remedy that annoyance

wat they are doing with gw2 is gonna remove any team play, tactic or competitivity in GW... and its gonna make it pve-based, it really looks ridiculously bad, the gameplay has become like WoW

Lanier · Sep 10, 2010, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

You didn't take a look at that thread did you?

I have looked at that thread on multiple occasions since it was thread necromancied. It clearly states that in terms of DPS, both of them are pretty equal with SoGM having a slightly higher potential. Im pretty sure I mentioned in my previous post that in terms of DPS, they are roughly equal, didnt I? I also mentioned that my suggestion wouldn't have much of an impact on SoS's DPS. You didn't read my post, did you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walking dude

^^That and don't forget that in addition to providing spirit walls SoGM also provides anti-melee (blind), passive enchant removal and possibly interrupts if you use dissonance.

And you can use all of these spirits in an SoS build as well... I dont really see what point you are making here.

Quote:

Compare spirit siphon with a necro's soul reaping on a Ether Renewal Ele then.

1. Soul Reaping does not need a skill slot while spirit siphon does
2. Soul Reaping energy gain is automatic, you dont need to target a suitable spirit and cast a spell on it.
3. Soul Reaping needs something to die, I'll give you that. But things die fast enough in PvE for soul reaping to be more OP than spirit siphon.

Ether Renewal is even more OP in terms of energy gain since you gain net energy and hp as you use your spells.

Uh, what? You are saying that Spirit Siphon isn't OP by comparing it to probably the two most OP e-management options in the game?

I don't understand what you are getting at. No profession should have unlimited energy, especially with the use of a non-elite spell. There are just too may ways that that can be abused. Saying that Rits can have spirit siphon b/c necros have soul reaping isn't really proving anything. Granted, I don't know much about soul reaping since I don't have a necro, but if it has the potential to give you a net gain of 8-11ish energy every 3 seconds, then it probably deserves to be nerfed as well. Once gain, I can't really speak on soul reaping since I don't use necros.

Oh, and don't forget that ER is elite.

Also don't forget that I am only asking for +5 seconds extra on recharge. I don't understand why that is such a big deal.

Did you all even read my suggestions, or are you just intent on arguing with my point of view regarding SoS being OP? They are very light nerfs and the standard SoS spirit spam build would still be very much intact and very powerful even if all of them were instituted. Can you explain why you think the suggested change to SoS or the +5 seconds to Spirit Siphon's recharge is such a big deal to you?

Quote:

SoS doesn't break econ(one in party, slow solo farm, etc)

Why should the effect of a skill on the economy or on farming/speed clears effect skill changes for it?

EDIT: You know what? Just forget everything I just said. Im tired of this pointless arguing. You arn't going to change my mind that SoS is OP and needs a slight nerf and at this point, Im sure that I'll not be able to change you guy's minds either. I honestly don't understand what is so wrong with my suggestion but obviously you guys don't think that a slight nerf to SoS is good, and I am know perfectly well that people don't just change their minds. Anyway, im sick of this arguing so yea...

Essence Snow · Sep 10, 2010, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I have looked at that thread on multiple occasions since it was thread necromancied. It clearly states that in terms of DPS, both of them are pretty equal with SoGM having a slightly higher potential. Im pretty sure I mentioned in my previous post that in terms of DPS, they are roughly equal, didnt I? I also mentioned that my suggestion wouldn't have much of an impact on SoS's DPS. You didn't read my post, did you?

I have actually read every one of you posts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I am asking for SoS to be slightly nerfed so that they are more on par with other ritualist dps options.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Is that really such a bad goal? To try and equal the damage potential of SoS spirit spamming builds and other dps builds available to rits?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I want other options to be equally viable as spirit spamming.

It is very evident that you want all rit skills to be on par with other rit skills (ofc split leet/non leet)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Honestly, at this point in time, I would prefer rits as they used to be. Back then (and im talking about back in the day when OoS support builds were usually recommended as the "best" options available), rits were probably one of the weakest professions in PvE.

Apparently you are not fond of rits having a place up next to other strong classes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Nerfing SoS would make SoGM and ritlord more desireable

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

SoS spirit spammers can pump out a ton more damage than SoGM communing rits

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Right now, I just want the overall power of SoS to equal that of SoGM.

Evidently you have wanted SoGM to be on par with SoS in terms of DpS until this last post, where you realized it already is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Im pretty sure I mentioned in my previous post that in terms of DPS, they are roughly equal, didnt I?

Quote:

No profession should have unlimited energy, especially with the use of a non-elite spell. There are just too may ways that that can be abused.

Here's the deal with spirit siphon...plz consider it....Although it may be OP in the energy it gives to a SoS rit, the SoS rit doesn't need the energy. So spirit siphon being OP doesn't effectively do anything with much utility. If it meshed well with strong spells which required that much energy, I would agree with you, but since it doesn't there is no point bothering with it. I have to disagree that there are too many ways in which it can be abused due to it's lack of synergy.

Quote:

Did you all even read my suggestions, or are you just intent on arguing with my point of view regarding SoS being OP? They are very light nerfs and the standard SoS spirit spam build would still be very much intact and very powerful even if all of them were instituted. Can you explain why you think the suggested change to SoS or the +5 seconds to Spirit Siphon's recharge is such a big deal to you?

IMO its all about....there's simply not enough justification there to change these skills. Changing them solely to change them doesn't make sense.